In conversation with Mursal Hedayat

Hello everyone and welcome to the ‘Go Glocal’ podcast series, the show that addresses the importance of think globally and act locally. I'm your host Ellen Wang from Leeds University Business School.

Today I'll be continuing the discussion on glocalisation with Mursal who graduated from economics at Leeds University Business School in two thousand and fifteen. I'm really excited to have Mursal on the show because of her inspiring journey and what she’s achieved so far. Mursal is a multi-award-winning entrepreneur and innovator, someone who wants to make positive impacts within the society for which she was awarded MBE for. I cannot wait to hear more about her journey and discussing the importance of glocalisation. So welcome Mursal, and thank you so much for joining me today how are you doing?

I'm doing very well, thank you so much for inviting me.

Ellen - Great and I think a really good place to start today Mursal is for you to tell us a little bit about yourself please, and you know who you are and tell us about your journey.

Mursal – For sure, so my name is Mursal Hedayat, I am the CEO of a company called Chatterbox which I found a few years after graduating from my degree in economics from the Leeds University Business School. My company is a language learning platform for professionals and companies but what's really unique about what we do at Chatterbox is that all of our language coaches are refugees and other talented people from marginalised backgrounds, who are taking their first step back into the labour market after career breaks. So, we're in a really important position in the economy today both within the expansion for demand and need for language learning but also the need for solutions to the economic disruptions that are going to unfold in the next decade.

Ellen - Absolutely and thank you for sharing that so just to follow up on that I'm really interested to learn a bit more on what inspired you to start your business, Chatterbox, can you tell us a bit more on that please?

Mursal - For sure so after graduating I completed a postgraduate programme called Year Here based in London, and Year Here touches actually on one of the themes of glocalisation, which is to kind of think locally right, but also aim for potentially global impact. Year Here is a programme to train in social entrepreneurship and there are many great companies other than Chatterbox that have graduated from it. But I know the founder, Jack, pretty well and for him the reason he started Year Here for you know British people and you have a go at solving local problems, is because of what he describes as the reductive seduction of other people's problems. You know when people graduate from University often their first thought is to go abroad to other parts of the world and solve other countries problems, which they probably don't even understand very well. There's a there's a reductive seduction so to speak about trying to solve the third world problems and I think a lot of people fall into that trap and get into International Development when they really want to have an impact, whereas Year Here kind of re-focuses that energy and enthusiasm toward solving local problems. The UK is experiencing one of the greatest disparities in incomes in its history, huge levels of poverty especially child poverty, huge social disruptions, caused by real issues or otherwise related to race related to refugees and migration. There are so many problems that we face in society today in Britain today that need our attention and that, we as brits, have a kind of competitive advantage in solving. It was on that programme that you know I trained in some of the toolkits for of social entrepreneurship but also, I started to think locally about the impact I could have.

Ellen – Great, thank you, and I think that’s a really good observation because you know people don't normally think about and talk about issues that happened in developed countries, so that's really good observation. Just going back to Chatterbox that you talked about, it’s an organisation that mainly focuses on languages right, so you talked about this. Now, my question is in your opinion, why is learning a different language really important what you think is the power of languages?

Mursal - I mean just from a pure economic business perspective, languages are kind of critical to business expansion successful business expansion. Almost every business today has a global market, and the world has never been more connected. And especially given innovations like E-Commerce and online remote working or SAS products, initial markets from for many different types of businesses is global. So, if you only think locally in terms of demand if you only have skillsets that allow you to connect with customers in your local region, then you're going to be at competitive disadvantage to companies that are thinking globally and do you know how to connect with hugely expanding markets in Asia or Africa and so on. I think language learning is critical for business exports but it's also really important for interesting communication. English is becoming the dominant language around the world, many people who speak English as a second language need extra support in order to be able to contribute fully to their teams. And in teams that speak other languages as well I you know one of our clients a big French bank and most of the senior managers speak French, so for an employee who doesn't speak French they feel like that at a disadvantage for promotions and so on for not speaking their language. There's important dynamics within teams which are increasingly diverse and multicultural, and also at growing demand and a growing need for businesses to think globally in terms of their businesses and language learning supports both of these things.

Ellen – Absolutely. So, you talked about competitive advantages and you shared, you know, some of your journey from your inspiration to setting up Chatterbox. So, I wanted to know it sounds like you still have a big plan for Chatterbox, can you tell us what is the big vision for Chatterbox please?

Mursal - The big vision for Chatterbox is to build Grand Central station for talent that's been displaced from the labour market. I think it's one of the most important problems to solve for the next decade, how we re-integrate talented professionals back into work after they've had a shock or a career break, whether that's because they're refugees or because their industries been disrupted through automation. This is really important to solve, it's much bigger than the refugee population which Chatterbox initially sought support. Our first step in that is being the preferred employer of this talented cohort of tens of millions of degree-educated people who are out of work right now, and who will become out of work over the next decade. So, language learning is one step toward that broader vision of, you know, being the preferred employer and the preferred kind of director of displaced talent.

Ellen - Okay so I'm just going to dig a little bit deeper, and have you got any plans and how you are going to achieve that? What's the next step?

Mursal - So over the last 12 months, after raising a small round of investment, Chatterbox has been growing at more than 30% month on month, so we've had quite a sustained period of growth. Our language learning programmes, and our language learning platform is now the provider for some of the world's largest companies and teaches lots of professionals around the world. What's really interesting is that because companies see us with our belief and our commitment to hiring talent from diverse and marginalised communities, the companies we sell our language learning services to are also starting to look a bit differently at refugees and mothers returning to work, and so on the people that we hire in our language learning programmes. So, actually this year for the first time we're going to actually open access to our own recruitment pipelines and companies to hire from the absolutely extraordinary talent that Chatterbox comes into contact with, and that's going to be a bit game changing I think for Chatterbox, to be able to offer not just immediate reintegration into freelance work, but long term careers for the people who we support on our platform.

Ellen – Great, thank you so the next thing I wanted to move into is kind of the theme of our podcast, ‘glocalisation’ which you talked about a little bit already. So, I just wanted to know obviously you talked a little bit about how the term resonated with you, and Chatterbox your company, so can you just tell us a little bit more about that, and also the strategy, so by working with other people to make more positive impacts within the society please.

Mursal - So the theme of globalisation definitely resonates with me, I mentioned that Year Here the programme that kind of inspired Chatterbox for me took a very strong stance about the importance of solving problems that you understand, that those are the local problems that you have, but also thinking you know about scaling those solutions globally to benefit as many people as possible. Rather than doing the reverse and going trying to solve other cultures or other communities’ problems, and then dictating to them how they should live their lives and what good looks like. But on another level, I think that Chatterbox as language learning product, helps local companies to be able to function better internationally. A lot of my work and my research goes into understanding cultural intelligence as one of the cool competences for the more advanced companies and professionals in the world today. And by cultural intelligence, I mean the ability for people to work effectively across different cultural contexts. You know, we have IQ because IQ came into fashion, and the concept of EQ emotional intelligence came into common usage. But today our teams, our companies have never been more internationalised, and never been more diverse. And there are also the conversations going about how to improve team collaboration and communication given the additional challenges of people working in this more internationalised context. And I really think the language learning beyond English language learning, is incredibly important to support that. I really don't look forward to a world where everyone speaks English only. There is early evidence that in the Middle East parents are teaching their children English as a first language rather than Arabic, which I think is just devastatingly depressing. Languages genuinely alter how you see the world, and how you think, that everyone starts thinking and acting the same, it would just be such a loss of global intelligence, and global inspiration, and creativity. And, it would be kind of unfair right, for one culture to dominate so heavily around the world. So, I take kind of language learning as being a real, something that's really supported by the evidence and being supported for businesses. But it's also really important just socially and culturally around the world, to help us transition better and more easily towards what is increasingly kind of understood, to be a global world economy rather than a local one.

Ellen - Yeah definitely, I couldn't agree more. And I think that language really brings people together you know, and I think in the context of international higher education, which is what I'm involved in, sometimes it is just one word or a couple of words really you know brings people together, at the opening of the meeting or in the end of the meeting it’s just for, you know, for the other person to understand that you appreciate their culture. You appreciate the language, but I think that's really just the start of it, you know, and I think what you do is much more beyond that, so I resonate with what you do, and you know, and I really think this is important. So, I'm going to sort of bring it back to the University sense because you talked a lot about Chatterbox and your vision, and your operation and strategy and so on so forth. So, if we were talking about from student’s perspective, our current students, what advice could you give to our students to develop a global mindset but to act locally? How do you think that they can do that right now?

Mursal – Well, you could learn a language. They are such an asset in the workplace today, they really open up your career prospects outside of the UK. You know, they broaden the mind, so I would say that one of the things they could do is to use one of the elective modules to study a language. Learning languages is one of the most challenging things that people do, because you have to compromise with perfection which I think a lot of, especially University of Leeds students, definitely probably have that being at such a renowned institution, a lot of them are going to not want to be half baked in any subject. But in languages, some people know it studied for 10 years and don't become natively proficient. So, it's being OK with being half there and being okay with being challenged by conversations, and still trying anyway. I think it's that sense of humility ultimately that breeds the empathy and understanding of an outsider in someone and that makes them a better person to work with, across different and more challenging cultural contexts. So the simple act of learning a language and that humility of trying and despite finding it difficult and despite, you know, kind of making mistakes and so on, that can be quite a transformation and develop that culturally intelligent mindset that's also going to help people stand out in their careers.

Ellen – Great thank you, I just want to pick up on one point which is being repeatedly shared by some of our speakers, you know, it's the fact that being okay not to be perfect. From a different perspective, you know, you talked about the fact that the act of learning is a great start to a successful journey you don't have to be perfect, and I think some of our previous speakers have also talked about that, and I really hope that message you know came through to our audience. It’s the fact that you start something that you have the willingness to learn, right, rather than being perfect in something. Because we’re not perfect, none of us are perfect, right?

Mursal – Definitely, especially in the context of work today, so many industries are completely new. I mean one of the most, kind of, one of the fastest growing types of work in the tech sector where Chatterbox kind of exists, is product management, which honestly as a as a field probably has a history spanning a decade or two. So, there's no long textbooks on how to be a great product manager and instead you have people, you know, with a lot of humidity, hungry, humble, and smart people, just learning and developing that profession on the in the job. And, that continuous learning mindset that myself not requiring everything to be perfect is a really important mindset to have in the next decade, which will just be characterised by huge shifts in the types of work they are in demand. So, if you're okay to, you know, really push in an area that you feel is uncomfortable because it's unknown to you, you're going to be really successful in this kind of fourth industrial revolution that we're going through right now.

Ellen - Yeah, absolutely, so thank you for sharing that. My next question is, as we all know, that universities been under huge pressure to better prepare students for the real world. So, what advice could you give to our students who are inspired by you to start their own social enterprise after our episode of the podcast, and what are the main skill sets that they should have?

Mursal – So, I completely disagree that university should prepare people for work. University is a distinct experience to develop your way of thinking, it's not about training people in a professional vocation. I mean a few degrees maybe, but I guess I'll be even those are much more abstract than the actual profession, so I am counter that narrative, I'll counter that narrative that University should be preparing people for work. Perhaps University should have a programme post degree that actually does that job better teaching people how to write good emails, and so on. That would be a useful addition, but please I really hope that that's not the direction that University degrees go in. My University degree, my studies in economics definitely gave me a decent understanding of the way the economy works, but more than anything it taught me how to research, it taught me how to do amazing, you know, Google searches, and it told me where to source information, it taught me how to learn, and how to, kind of, the work ethic that's needed to be successful. It definitely taught me framework for thinking that I use even today, but it definitely didn't teach me how to be an entrepreneur. I think that came from perhaps after University, it was you know, identifying the first opportunity that seemed really aligned with what I wanted to do, and I was very lucky that first step was Year Here, which is an extraordinary programme that I highly recommend. And then going to, kind of, an advice if someone does know that they are interested in entrepreneurship, is Sparks still a thing at Business School? - Oh yeah very much so - yes there you go. So, I wish if I had known I was going to become an entrepreneur earlier on, I would have absolutely used that as a resource because they have everything from, kind of, funding through to advice and support, so go and hit up at the Spark Programme and draw from it everything that you can. And then just, like start something. That's how you become an entrepreneur, start something. Even if it's like a festival or even if it's an event or a night or a, you know, just find what you find interesting, and try to make try to make a product or service someone's willing to pay for and you’re already an entrepreneur.

Ellen – Thank you I love that, I have to say, Mursal, you’ve shared some really fresh perspective that no one has shared so far, and I found that really exciting. So I love the idea that you said during your time at the University, the skills that you've obtained are more research, how to learn, and work ethic, as opposed to skills relates to employability. I love that, so I just wanted to ask if there are students that kind of thinking, ok if I want to be an entrepreneur, I now know how to research, I know my learning style, I’ve got a good work ethic, how do I then use these skills to transfer into starting something on my own?

Mursal - Well thankfully you don't have to start something on your own, like with programmes like Spark and Year Here and the Entrepreneurs Foundation, there's so many different programmes that you can jump on, accelerators and incubators and so on, that will help you from everything from developing ideas through to accelerating an idea that you actually have, to help you secure investment. So, if you're finding it challenging to get started, I would look at what resources are available, programmes that can actually guide you through the steps. I was part of Year Here, after Year Here we were invested in by Bethnal Green Ventures it has its own accelerator, Chatterbox is back by Founders Factory which has another, kind of, way to support start-ups, we’re backed by All Turtles which is a start-up studio based in San Francisco, and all of my learning, my entrepre-learning, came from all of these sources. So, you don't have to do it alone like, start-ups and investment in start-ups has grown so much that actually people really support you in helping to teach you and educate you on the steps if you don't already know them.

Ellen – That’s great to know as well, you know, I think you know I really love the bit where you said the journey isn't alone, that you have these supporting systems, all these organisations out there to help along the way, and I think that goes back to you saying about the researcher skills, right? Which is really important because not many people really use those skills obtained from attending university, and really transfer that into their further career. So yeah, I think that's really good tip. As we're coming to the end Mursal, of our podcast today, I think you know you've shared so many different things which are wonderful, are there anything else that you wanted to share from Chatterbox perspective, or your personal journey perspective? Are there any opportunities to link Chatterbox with, you know, Leeds University students let's say?

Mursal – Definitely, so, we are just about to close another random investment actually, and we are going to be hiring like crazy over the next 12 to 18 months, so I would love to have a company full of Leeds University graduates to join me and so if anyone is interested then they can definitely hit me up on LinkedIn or at me on Twitter.

Ellen – Fantastic, so that's a great news, and thank you so much for letting us know about that opportunity. Thank you so much, Mursal. I think that concludes our episode today I just wanted to thank you so much for joining us and your insights and sharing your journey. I think you know you've shared some really fresh and interesting perspective and, you know, really understanding where you come from and how you were inspired to set up your own business and make positive impact within the society, but more importantly I think it’s about how you really use the skills that you've learned from university in terms of research, you know you think that research really just to do your assignments, your thesis and dissertation, but actually it contributes so much more than just that and carrying into your future career. So, on that note I just wanted to say thank you so much Mursal, and wish you all the best and I look forward to seeing more success of Chatterbox.

Mursal - Thank you very much, I mean it all started at Leeds University so thank you for the opportunities that gave me.

Ellen – Great, thank you. So, remember audience, if you wish to connect with Mursal, then please do follow her on LinkedIn or Twitter. Now, over the next few episodes I hope to continue inviting guests to join me and share their insights on glocalisation, and how they are tackling some of the challenges along the way. Most importantly, I want to raise awareness and importance of think globally and act locally. If you're interested in finding out more about this topic, please subscribe to our podcast series, or if you would like to get in touch then our contact details are available in the episode description. Until then, let's go Glocal!