In conversation with Dr Adam Kassab

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Glocal podcast series, the show that addresses the importance of think globally and act locally. I'm your host, Ellen Wang from Leeds University Business School. Today I'm going to be discussing glocalization with Adam, was one of our alumni who graduated from the school of Politics and International Studies. I'm hoping to be able to draw some key messages based on Adam’s story, and to receive some top tips on the current challenges that our students are facing. Hi, Adam, thank you so much for joining us today.

Adam Kassab: Hey Ellen, how you doing? Nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Ellen Wang: Great. Thank you so much, Adam. It's a pleasure. So, I think a good place to start to our podcast today, Adam, is for you to tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey and where you ended up in Japan out of all places, please.

Adam Kassab: Thanks. So yeah, my name is Adam Kassab. And I've been living and working in Japan for almost 20 years now. As you said, I'm a graduate in politics of international resources and Development Studies and I currently work at a global medical device company, a Japanese global medical device company. And my main area is looking at organisational change, supporting innovation, supporting leadership development, and also helping the company globalise so that it's actually an easier place for non-Japanese people to come and live and work here. And also, as well, as being a Leeds graduate, I also have a doctorate from in storytelling, from Hitotsubashi University in Japan, which is one of the top national universities.

Ellen Wang: Thank you for sharing all that information. Adam, I think there are a few key words that are picked up that your expertise, areas in organisation are changing, and leadership for development, but most importantly, is the globalisation that I picked up. So, I think one of the things that we're talking about today is a glocalization. So, I was wondering that having lived and worked in Japan for so many years, what are your thoughts on the term of glocalisation, please? Was it a term that you were aware of before you left university? Or something that you became aware of afterwards?

Adam Kassab: Yeah, thanks, Ellen. So, I think this is something I just sort of learned through experience, right, and making lots of mistakes, and, you know, just on my journey, working internationally, and the way I come at them, I mean, the way I think about it today, glocalization. I mean, it's a great word, the way I think about it, maybe it's kind of on three levels. So first, you can think of, kind of internationally, right? So, thinking from a, you know, global and local thinking or kind of international global perspective. So, for example, you know, a great leader needs to be very much aware of what's happening in Asia, what are the trends in the US, you know, what's happening in Europe? What, what are the kind of impacts of new technology, you know, those type of kind of global trends, right to have a good sense of that. But then the trick is, when it comes to the local part, you need to be able to sift through all that massive, I mean, there's just so much happening, right? So much information, but you need to be able to sift through that and think, what is significant out of all of this, what are the implications to the company where I'm working? And based on that, you know, what actions should be, what actions should I be taking, and also, then comes the leadership part of, you know, raising awareness, influencing and actually making the change happen within your organisation. So, on that level, it's thinking of the world as a big kind of global, you know, dynamic system, and then having a good sense of what's happening at that level, and then bringing that to bear on the company you're working at.

So that's the kind of first level same level second level down, which is kind of similar within your own organisation, you can think of the global level, right, so that's that maybe the leadership group or the board members, right, they're thinking the whole company globally and strategically, from that sort of balanced viewpoint, right? And then so having a good understanding of that is really key. And then again, bringing that down to your individual business unit, your function, your job, understanding what's relevant from that to you. And you know, what actions again, what actions you can take, and then having the leadership to make the changes so you can actually support what they're doing as well on their level. So that's kind of another one step down, but it's a sort of same sort of thing but within the company, right? So not just being stuck within your own function or business unit, but having a good understanding a good network across the whole company, right? That's a second.

And third level is, I mean, I call this like a working style, right. So, I wouldn't say there's a global way of working in a local way of working. But what I would say is, there are different ways of working. And depending on what you're trying to achieve, it's good to, you know, a good leader would make the right sort of choice. So, they're at, let me just give you an example. Right. So, Japan is a very high context, group orientated kind of consensus driven culture. And so, if you're trying to implement change, or, you know, starting a new initiative or something like that, then you need to have a lot of, you know, the socialisation process is really important, you need to have a lot of meetings, a lot of discussions, people need to air their views and concerns and things go back and forth, and back and forth. And for outsiders, it can seem like a crazy process that just takes a lot of time. But once it's once you've been through the process, then the change happens really quickly. So that's the kind of sort of approach working locally in Japan would make sense, right? But if you take that approach, and try and work internationally, it's, it's not going to work, right. So internationally, you need to be much more, when you're working with people from different countries, you need to be much more kind of low context, which means you have to be very clear about everything. What are the objectives? You know, how are decisions made? Who's responsible for what roles? What are the milestones? and then also delegate more so that there's more flexibility, so people can kind of take into account their individual countries or the idiosyncrasies of where they're working. So that's the kind of another level of like I said, it's kind of choosing the right approach, depending on the country or the situation where you're working. That's kind of it and so can I just tell you, you, you kind of said at the beginning, jumping back, how did you end up in Japan and a lot of people I mean, 20, almost 20 I think you've been in England a long time as well, right?

Ellen Wang: Yes, I have. Yes, I've been here. This is my 24th year.

Adam Kassab: Okay. So, you know, in Japan, there's the Senpai, you're my senior, right? You're my Senpai?

Ellen Wang: No, no, I think it's the opposite. So, so tell us how did you answer Japan?

Adam Kassab: So, you know, I mean, one of the great things about Leeds is there's just so many international students there. And you know, being me very curious type of person, I kind of spent a lot, I hung out a lot with people from all around the world. And for some reason, I just clicked with the, there was a kind of around 40 or 50 Japanese students there. And I just clicked and fell in with this group and just had great fun, right? So, there was a kind of cultural fit, I think, between Japan and me, right. And one of them invited me out here for kind of end of year, new year and had a great time. And that was that. And then, you know, quite a few years later, I was actually looking to buy a house in London. This estate agent was showing me around the house and my phone rang. And, you know, was this head-hunter? I wasn't going to answer it, because it was like this number. I didn't recognise the number. But anyway, I just answered it. And it was one of those old Nokia phones, maybe it was kind of small one before the smartphones, right? Oh, right. Yes. Yeah. And anyway, and then he said, Oh, this Japanese companies in London next month, they want to interview they're looking for someone like you, and are you interested? And I'm like, Okay. And so, I had this interview, and he basically said to me, when can you start? How much money do you want? And what's like, Oh, so that kind of got me out here. And one thing led to another, and now it's sort of yeah, almost 20 years. Maybe I can come back to that.

Ellen Wang: Thank you, Adam. I mean, I stayed quiet for a good few minutes, that's because I'm running out of space, taking notes of what you said. So, you raised so many good points. And I just didn't think you know, I needed to interject. But, you know, overall, I think I made a note of some really important points that you raised. The one of the things about leadership, you know, being what is the good leadership that you talked about having a broad perspective, but also a good leader is being able to filter on the local level, I think that's a really, really good perspective that you shared there. And then also, it’s the balance between having a global perspective but also bring it down to personal level to resonate. And once people can resonate on the individual level, they will be able to do it more effectively and more efficiently. So that's the second point that picked up and then obviously, there are other things he talked about working style, and also the cultural fit as well. And I think that's not just within cross cultural perspective, but also from kind of within the organisation as well. And that is something that our students perhaps not really have been aware of before. And that something is almost a soft skill that the students need to, you know learn, perhaps through experience going forward. So speaking of, you know, soft skills, one of the things I wanted to say is that, you know, given, quote, current pandemic situation, which resulted in lack of international mobility, what do you think our students can develop a global mindset, but to act locally? I think you've touched a little bit from a kind of leadership perspective. But is there anything that our students can do to prepare themselves as a graduate?

Adam Kassab: Yeah, great question. And, you know, before I answer that, I mean, you're absolutely right about different cultures within the company. So, for example, you know, if I go to one of our factories, right, the manufacturing plant, very, very different mind-set and culture to, for example, the r&d Centre, show, again, very, very different to one of the final, you know, the support functions. So, having that sensitivity and adapting to, you know, the different kind of cultures within the organisation is also really important. Yeah. So, how to develop a global mind-set. Now, I think there's good news and bad news here. Because I think the bad news is, I think, you know, a lot of the research suggests that this is something that you need to have a lot of kind of early experiences, right, with kind of international exposure, kind of at a young age seems to be quite important.

But having said that, where I'm working now, some of our very successful managers, literally, their first overseas assignment was the, you know, they were in their 40s, or 50s. And basically, they did, you know, incredibly well, and even with very limited English ability. So, it's not, it's not kind of decisive, it's not like the, you know, you can learn and develop and adapt and grow. And, I mean, it's difficult to answer, but I think curiosity is one of the most important things right, just to be very curious and open. So, you know, and trying to understand why things can be very, you know, if you ever visit Tokyo, it looks like any modern, Western kind of developed city. So, on the outside, it looks just kind of normal, but the human relations, the mindset, how people think and act, and it's totally different. So, it can act, it can actually be quite a shock, because it looks really normal. But the more you stay here, the more you realise that it's actually a very, very different place to kind of to be and really think different. So that so being flexible and open. And, and I think one of maybe, really important thing is don't assume anything. So, make sure you know, you may think you understand something, you may even be using the same English word, for example, but they may be using it in a very different way, they may have a very different understanding to how you're using the word or the concept. So, it's always important asking, clarifying, asking, and, you know, don’t feel shy or embarrassed or stupid to do that. One big challenge is learning how to read people, you know, I grew up in, say, grew up in London. So, you meet someone new in London for the first time, I have a kind of sense, who is this person? What's their type? Are they, you know, their background? I kind of have a sense, right? Should I take their opinion into account? Or should I just kind of ignore them? That kind of sense of who someone is? In your own countries, we kind of naturally develop that over time, right? When you go to a new country? Working globally, right? It's so difficult to read someone. Sure. Can I trust this person? Are they talking rubbish? Or, you know, should I take them seriously? Or, you know, it's so difficult to get that sense. And so, I think just you just have to be very careful in the beginning and make a special effort.

For example, just ask other people about so and so you know that. Whereas in your own country, maybe you kind of get that sense anyway. So that's something and it just takes time. And I think the other thing, maybe this is the most maybe the most important thing, working with this kind of glocalization is knowing developing a sense of when do you accept something as it is? And when do you think, oh, wait a minute, there's a better way to do this. I'm going to challenge it. I'm going to push forward. So, learning to tell the difference between you know, okay, I come from I'm an outsider, I have a different perspective. There's a much way, much better way of doing things than this. I'm going to push and challenge this is how we're going to do it, I'm going to lead through them through this process. And you can really bring some value, right? But then sometimes, you just have to say, wait a minute, wait a minute, this is how things are done now, it's, it's not the right time, it's too early, I'm not the right person, I have to accept this as it is, and work with it or work around it. And learning to tell the difference is, is a real key, I think to being successful. And you know, a lot of people I see make mistakes, because they push like a bull trying to change something, when actually you much better approach would have been to accept it and work with it, or that. So, learning to that difference, I think is really, really key. And I don't think there's any quick answer how to that it's just kind of experience, practice experience from practice.

Ellen Wang: Of course, I think you've given us enough insight here. And it's very interesting perspective. But once again, I'm madly taking notes here. I think I'm just running out of space on my note book. But yeah, you know, once again, you talked about some really key words, that things about being flexible. And you know, that's one of the things that really, we all need to be flexible, you know, we can't really be in restraint into one framework, or one way of working. And I think that's really important. Curiosity, I think, you know, people say curiosity kill cats. But, you know, I think the opposite I really think curiosity is very important, is it's a drive for people to pursue, you know, as a drive for people to learn more things, and being open and never to assume things and also challenge at the right time, to the right people. So, you know, I've taken all of that in, and I think that is really a good way to build the foundation for global mind-set. So, thank you so much for, you know, for sharing…

Adam Kassab: That’s another thing about how to build trust, right, building trust, I think that's especially in you know, you know, some cultures are low risk, and some cultures are high risk, right? So, low, high, low risk cultures, you need to spend a lot of time building trust. And, you know, say, for example, I don't know, Vietnam, there might be they actually like risk, right. And rather than talking and talking and talking to prepare, before they act, it's like, well, let's just start and see what happens. And then we can aside on the go kind of So, but other cultures, very low risk, they hate risk. So, you really need to build trust. And this takes time. And you know, it's about having small successes. It's about you know, don't surprise anyone no surprises, so everyone can see what's coming. You say what you're going to do you do it. So, this, there's a connection between what you say and your actions and your words. And you know, you're there for everyone, your kind of a team player, you show you're committed that that's can take down a country like Japan, it can take three, four or five years to actually build that trust. But once you have it, it's, it's a mess. So, where I'm working now, I've been here for around eight years. And the first three, four years, it was like bit by bit small, little steps. And yeah, building my true building trust building. Now I have really, really good trust, I've got a good reputation internally. And it's amazing what you know, what I can do now that I couldn't do before. So, building trust is also really key.

Ellen Wang: Absolutely. And I think you raised a really important point there in terms of the length of time to build that trust can really differ and vary from one country to another. So, I think it's important for our students to be aware of that. And being able to accept that, you know, the length of time can take a very long or short depending on which country and you know which culture they're in.

Adam Kassab: Absolutely. Yeah, that's a really key point.

Ellen Wang: Great. So, one of the things I want to pick up, Adam is that things that you mentioned, very early on in our conversation that you've attained PhD in storytelling and personal branding. So, one of the things I just wanted to ask is, in my previous episode, I've interviewed several student’s representative on one of the things that they've shared with me is about the challenge on building personal branding, how to tell their stories in order to secure graduate jobs. So just on that topic, I'd love to, you know, hear your insight and your advice on how do you think our students can build on personal branding? And you know, how to enhance their storytelling in order to secure jobs, please?

Adam Kassab: I mean, you mentioned… I have a doctorate from Hitotsubashi, which is a very well, you know, it's one of the top national universities here. So, I mean, part of the reason I did that, I mean, I love studying that's one thing, but part of the reason I did that was for personal branding, right? If I say, Hey, my name is Adam, you know, Leeds University, maybe some people have heard of Leeds university but, Princess Kako (of Akishino)?

Ellen Wang: Sure, yes…

Adam Kassab: She went there. So, whenever I, whenever I talk about Leeds University, a lot of people, maybe they haven't heard of it. So, I said, you know, Princess Kako. And I think she studied psychology there or for one year. So, I mentioned that, and I think and that helps with the branding, right? So, associating yourself with something that in the culture you're working in, they can reference, right. So, for me Hitotsubashi is like, wow, you got a PhD from Hitotsubashi, Hitotsubashi is kind of like Harvard. So that's personal branding. But you have to do it with something that wherever you're working, they can connect to right. So again, leads some people know, it's not not so well known in Japan, even people always say to me, where is Leeds, you know, in England, so I have to show them on a map. That's one thing, but I mean, two things I would just say about personal branding is, I mean, maybe the most important thing is about knowing yourself, right? knowing who you are, you know, for example, what do you like, you know, what type of people do you like working with? What when do you feel like really excited, fired up and motivated? What type of work are you doing? Who are the people that you love to work with? Who are the people you admire? And also, really important is what do you have to offer? What is your skill set? What, you know, what, what are the weapons you have that if someone says, hey, come and work with us? They think, okay, now Adams joined our team. Now we can do this, this and this, and this, whereas before we couldn't? So, what is that? What are you bringing, that people can benefit from? So, getting all that clear, in your mind, I think is really, really important. So, understanding yourself, who you are, the type of work you want to do the type of people you love working with? And what is it? What's your weapon? What can you offer? That is so clear, once you have that clear, then it's just about communicating it to other people, right? So once people know who you are, and how you can help them, then it's so much easier to work together. Right? So that's the kind of that's the personal branding part, right?

Ellen Wang: Really, really important. Really good tips. And I think the most important thing I picked up there, as you were saying, association, to your connections to your local culture, right, and I think that's really, really important, is being able to understand, you know, you know, called local knowledge, but to make that association to your audience, you know, that's exactly the storytelling part. Right?

Adam Kassab: Exactly. Put it in, in words or a context that they can understand. Exactly.

Ellen Wang: Great. And so, you talk about the skills and you know, you talk about as part of your personal branding, or storytelling, you got to know your art, and your skills, and etc. So, one of the things that wanted to perhaps ask or dress is that, obviously, universities have been under pressure to better prepare the students for the real world. So, employability skills are, you know, almost as important as a subject. So, I wanted to ask, in your opinion, what do you think are the main skills that our graduates should develop to prepare themselves?

Adam Kassab: Yeah, you’re asking really good questions…

Ellen Wang: I try, I try…

Adam Kassab: I mean, I would say the way I look at this is, first of all, there are skills that you need to be successful in your own country, your own culture, where you know, where you grew up where you are. Now, thing. And they're the sort of basic business skills so you know, communication skills, logical thinking, you know, how to use Excel, how to get on with everyone, or whatever it could be marketing, marketing, know how, whatever the kind of core basic business skills that everyone needs within your own country to be successful. If you if you start an international assignment or trying to work globally, and you haven't, that haven't developed that foundation, you're going to struggle, right, it's going to be difficult. So that needs to be that's the kind of a must have. Then on top of that, when the global picture comes in, so you need extra things. So obviously, language skills help. That kind of cross-cultural awareness and understanding becomes really important. And then maybe the most important is global perspective or being able to put yourself in different people's shoes. So being able to take and understand and think from different perspectives. I think that's so first part is the skills you need in your own country to be successful. And then on top of those, the sort of the global skills. And then I think, you know, again, underneath all that, is to have a strong sense of, again, who you are, what are your values? What are your what's, what are your ambitions? What are your aims? Because you have to stay true to yourself. Right? You have to stay true to who you are. Otherwise, it's like being a, you know, a sailing a sailing boat without a rudder, whatever, you're just going to be floating around, you have to you have to stay true to who you are. Does that sort of answer your question?

Ellen Wang: It does. It does. And once again, I think there were so many key points there. And I'm just, I literally have to change my notebooks to a new one. But yeah, thank you so much, Adam, I think you've shared so much really interesting perspectives, from, you know, global mind-set perspective, but also, you know, the point on some basic skills our students should be able to acquire during their study with us. But in addition to that, there are so many unique skills that they need to be able to, you know, acquire in terms of cross-cultural competencies, global perspective, but also being able to do that roleplay to think from, you know, other perspective, think from other in other people's shoes, but also stay true to yourself as well.

Adam Kassab: I love it. But I think a really interesting way to think about your own career, and developing skills is the letter T. So, you have in, say, a capital letter ‘T’ across the top, it's kind of broad, right? So, I think, I would say between 20s and 30s, to get as much varied experience as possible, across the top right, so then you develop the ‘T’ at the top, and then the leg going down, forming the T shape. That would be over time, bit by bit develop your speciality or some kind of focus, that was kind of traditionally the best way to set your career going. So, you have a breadth and some kind of depth of knowledge as well. But I think in today's world, that's, that's not enough. So, you're you almost need two legs on the ‘T’. So, like more like a pie shaped right, like the circumference of a circle, right? That pie. So across, again, having a good broad range of experience, but then not just one, two, even three legs coming down. And that is you are going to be so unique and in hot demand. So, my personal example. So, okay, I've worked in, you know, American multinational companies, big Japanese companies, manufacturers consulting company, a broad range of experience worked in London, worked in Japan, and so on. So that's across the top. Now going down, okay, I speak Japanese kind of Japan experience. So that's one part of the ‘T’ coming down. And what I have a good knowledge now of medical device company, medical industry, medical business, which is, again, another t coming down. And then maybe the third part is, you know, leadership organisation, change organisation development background. So, I kind of got these three pillars coming down. I'm not the world's best Japanese speaker. I'm not the world's best person when it comes to organisation change and development leadership. I'm not the world's expert on medical device industry. But I got a good understanding of all three. So together, it's such a unique combination. And so very few sort of competitors, or very few people have that talent stack or skill set.

Ellen Wang: Absolutely. I think I just having listened to your stories, and I was trying to draw your described ‘T’ shape. But now I made it out to be a bridge basically, with a very long breath on top, and then so many legs underneath. So, it looks like a bridge. But I think you're being very modest. Adam, I think you know, you've shared so many insights. And it's very inspirational, to listen to your journey to your insight into your story as well to become, you know, the person that you are today and where you are today as well. So, I think that is a really good point to draw a conclusion. So, I just wanted to say thank you so much, Adam, for joining us, and sharing all of the insight. And so, it's been an absolute pleasure. And we would love to invite you back soon.

Adam Kassab: You're too kind. Thanks. I've really enjoyed this. And you've been great asking such wonderful questions really made me think so. I've learned a lot as well talking to you. So, thanks so much.

Ellen Wang: Thank you, Adam.

Adam Kasab: Good luck, good luck to all the Leeds grads. And you know, I'm sure you have a very exciting, bright future.

Ellen Wang: Thank you very much. Thank you. So, I think this is the end of our episode today with so many things to take away. And remember, if you're leader of your thinking to be a leader in the future, then international perspective. It's very important, but to be able to filter on that personal level. And there are so many more about balance between global perspective and personal perspective and to resonate. And Adam shared his insight on storytelling and stay true to yourself. There are so many takeaways points that are probably, you know, we haven't got enough time to go back to but on that note, I wanted to say that over the next few episodes I will continue to invite more guests to join me and share their experiences in tackling current challenges and their thoughts on go Glocal. I want to continue to raise the awareness and the importance of think globally and act locally. So, if you're interested in finding more about this topic, please subscribe to our podcast series. Also, if you would like to get in touch our contact details available in the episode description. Until then, that's go Glocal!